Back to the Beginning—The Grace Church Origin Story

• Grace Church began from a desire to provide expositional teaching, contemporary worship reflecting Scripture, and small group discipleship in the Upstate of South Carolina.
• The grassroots beginning of the church brings Ephesians 4 to life and displays the varied giftedness of individuals that build up the body of Christ.
• People like the Johnstons, the Proctors, the Fowlers, and many more devoted their prayers, finances, resources, time, and presence to the church, and the effects of their faithfulness are ongoing.

30 Years of Grace Webpage

History of Grace Church Timeline

This is a a different way to look at church and it's not it's something it's who you are and what we're doing, not what we're going to. And so go back to your box checking thing and we we said this, this is a different deal. This is an all in kind of we're going to make this get all over us in area, every area of our lives, our marriage, raising kids and and I just don't think at the time there was anything that we had a context for that that church did that to you. You know, the local church was again this thing that you're a part of and you go to, but not that becomes so much a part of who you are in your relationship with Jesus.

Well, we have a full studio today because we are looking back and celebrating the 30th anniversary of Grace Church. So I'm joined by Matt Williams, Vicki Williams, Tom Merritt and Bill White as we're going to do a little reflecting and storytelling and just catching up. So welcome everybody. Thanks to be here. Thanks for having us. Matt, I have heard you say many times that you are not a church planter, but you did plant a church.

You planted this church. So why? Why Grace Church? It's a good question Mark. You know, when Vicki and I met at Clemson, we were both immersed in Fellowship of Christian athletes and we both came from a little different backgrounds, but we were having a common experience along with a bunch of other students of doing ministry. We were seeing people come to faith.

We were college students in Bible study and they were growing and, and you know, we had friends that were at, with crew and Ruf and other. So it was Clemson at that time was a very fertile, spiritually, very fertile place. And so lots of really neat things were happening. And I think we got a, we got a taste for ministry while we were there and decided to go to seminary and didn't know what we're going to do with that. And I didn't know if it was on staff with FCA or a businessman who disciples other businessmen or so I wasn't thinking much about church work, but I knew that was a possibility.

So we moved out there and we got to see some churches that were very different than anything that we had grown up seeing. We got to see some of the vibrancy that we were seeing in college student ministry. And we thought, oh, that could happen in little church. And I've already overstated my observations. I actually didn't even connect that many dots. Vicki was really the one connecting dots.

And we'd be riding to church and be like, you know, our church is great. And I thought, yeah, it is. She's, you know, where we come from, there aren't as many churches that are doing this kind of ministry. I'm like, no, there's not. And then, you know, somebody I want to start church like, like I'm a granted, I'm like, what are we talking about?

So I'll just, I'll just kick it to you and you can talk about what you were thinking during that time because you were making those observations in more concrete ways. And I was, I was overwhelmed with being there, having to go to school, learn. And I think you were starting to connect dots about what what we might want to be a part of, what we might want to do. Yeah. How did you see something like what you were experiencing in the Dallas Fort Worth area translate to the Upstate? Because this is home for you, This is where you grew up.

So what kind of thoughts are you having doing these? Four years of school. Yeah, I think the idea was just we got to go there and and the church we were most involved in, just that we were members of was an amazing church with lots of great Bible teaching that we had really not been exposed to other than a few times by that same pastor through para church ministry.

And so it just kind of opened my eyes to even the idea of really understanding the Bible and hearing teaching for the first time. And then we also visited other churches that were doing lots of neat things that we had just never seen with at that time, small group ministries and things like that, that we had just had not been exposed to. And so it felt like they were able to do discipleship in a different way than what we had seen. And I think I was just kind of jealous for, I thought about all of our friends that we had been in FCA with back at Clemson.

And I thought, I want them to have this too. I mean, it really was this kind of, as simple as that idea is, I thought there's a lot of people that just haven't been exposed because it's, it's not the same area of the USI mean. And, and I even met a girl at the beginning of seminary, which I was kind of dumbfounded by this idea. We were sitting around at a Bible study one night and she had grown up in a church like that.

So she was almost at that time, I was probably 20-3 ish and she was like 28 and she'd never seen a church that was any different. And I just couldn't, I couldn't get my mind wrapped around it. And so I think it just helped build that passion in me for like, this could be really neat to, you know, to expose other people to this idea of growing and learning. I just could not get enough. Every week we could not wait. We drove 50 minutes to church, like close to an hour, and we could not wait to get there and hear the teaching that week.

So then how, when does the idea of doing this for the two of you coming back home and doing this, is that a real idea in your mind at some point? I think it became more real. We were there four years. We we looked at 2 year program for him and then it kind of ended up shifting to the four year program.

And so during that time, that last couple of years that he was in school, I think it began to kind of we were talking about it more. And then that last year he was actually having meetings with people around some friends from seminary to kind of see if anybody had any interest in a church like this or. And just trying to, we're just putting feelers out, trying to understand what you would do to, you know, start a church like this and what it would look like. Yeah, it's probably hard to for some listeners to think church planting is part of the normal vocabulary.

But are people playing churches 30 years ago? Yeah. She met a friend, a guy named Judy, Judy Hayes, and we went to dinner with them and I didn't know her husband yet from said we were in school together, but I hadn't met him yet. And we just got talking that night. Like what what does he want to do? And he goes, I'm playing a church.

And I thought that's the nuttiest thing I've heard. Also like I guess they do got to start. I guess that is the truth. I just I don't think that idea had ever really crossed my mind. And he talked about it and very practical terms, you know, and was very clear that that's what he wanted to do. And I think that just the idea that that could happen along with these experiences that Vicki and I are having where I mean, if I'm just being honest, that that the church world I grew up in, it was obligatory.

You just went, it was something, it was a box that you checked. I don't think people were thinking in terms of learning and growing and being disciples and passing that on. They were just thinking in terms of I met a requirement this week by going to church, by being a part of that one hour experience. And we were experiencing something very different. And it and is as she put words to it, I thought, yeah, and of course I can be super reductionistic. I'm like, how hard can it be?

And so I'm up for it. It doesn't take much to talk me into something because I'm like, well, that's not going to be the hard. So yeah, sure, we'll do it for a while. Would you like to start stuff? I do like to start stuff. Yeah, so I mean, what?

Start church? You know, I look at guys driving semis down the road and always think, well, there's too many doing it to be hard. I guess probably the craziest thought it was probably super hard, but I was just dumb like that.

So we did. That's what we spent my last year there talking to guys. I I took a class about church planting and I start talking to a group of guys who were doing and they just knew more than I did. And they were handing me books and resources and we just began exploring the idea. And, and we were thinking about going to Atlanta. And I talked to our pastor and he said, you know, I would.

I said, how would you make a decision about where to plant a church? And we've already really made the decision. We're going to Atlantic. I knew a couple of businessmen there. And he said, you know, you want to go probably to a college town because of the kind of teaching that you're going to want to do that that environment will fit. And he goes and you want to go to a town with people that you care about because after 10 years and it fails, you still want to feel good about what you did.

I was like, man, that is some encouraging part. Let's start, OK, let's go. And I drive back home. I thought, well, I don't really care about anybody in Atlanta. I didn't mean it in a bad way. I just had it, you know, I don't have.

That's OK, most people live here now. It's and I can see why you got to get out of Atlanta that Dr. exertable and we had friends like Vicki said that were graduating Clemson and coming to Greenville area and should we knew some people here because Vicki was from here and then the the connection with Clemson to here. And I thought, well, that's pretty good advice and that let's do that. Let's try to go to Greenville and do this and then we'll just and I really did have like 2 years in my head, maybe maybe three years, because it was not something that I could foresee.

The idea of having to stand in front of people and teach was a real daunting idea and made me real nervous. And as it turns out, it still does that to me. I like to teach and I like to explain things to people. They get tired of it, but I like to do it in private. I having to stand in front of a bunch of people and explain stuff has been more challenging.

So I wasn't really thinking I want to be a pastor long term. And so all that had to just kind of frog in the kettle kind of thing had to come slowly over time. So it took me a little while to get used to that idea.

And so, Vicki, when you talked about this emphasis on discipleship, what were some some of the specific pieces like around the teaching? But what kind of teaching and how is that incorporated into worship? Like what were some of those things that you were like? We're going to bring this back into a church setting. Yeah. I think it was like obviously teaching expositional teaching kind of from the pulpit area from teaching on Sunday morning just.

Just try to go verse by verse. Verse by verse, learning a hopefully kind of learning to grasp a whole book of the Bible at the time and also seeing how it connects to other parts of Scripture that I had just never, I just never seen the Bible. Yeah, I've seen in a lot of churches.

And so I heard, you know, different passages taught well and fine, but all separate and not something that was like, oh, this is God's story, you know. And so I really, I think, and then the idea of connecting what we called contemporary worship, you know, which is kind of outdated now, but 30 years ago it was, it was the buzzword, I guess. So it's just bringing that the idea of worship connecting a little bit to what you've heard to to given a real kind of responsive experience there with worshipping.

And then also just the idea of hopefully with small groups to be able to study God's Word together and get people actually reading their Bibles and studying God's Word and not just coming to church once a week. And that's kind of all they do. And if they do ministry, it was like the people we knew that were involved in ministry, a lot of them were all at least younger people, younger generation. We're all outside the church. It wasn't as much participating. And we were like, this is the church's job, to be able to impact the community, the world, people, you know, connecting with people.

Yeah, that seems to be a big idea for a lot of us in the room because we had this experience at college through something that was not the local church, where discipleship was emphasized and we were really growing. But then how do you put it back into this local church context that for a lot of times looked ritualistic? You know, you mentioned responsive, you know, and connected to life, whereas a lot of times church just seemed to be ritualistic and box checking.

And so you're moving back and you're going to do that. You got to start calling some friends, I guess, to do that. And I think we've got about 40% of the first church meeting in this room right now.

Yeah. What does that? How does that look like? How do you get started? Three weeks before I had Maddie, our first child, I was 37 weeks and he flew back to have a meeting. I talked to a guy that was here in town, we went to Clemson and he was part of a singles Bible study and I made-up a flyer.

I mean, I'm real good with graphic communications, y'all. So I made-up this amazing flyer and I sent it to him, I said. Hey stick figures on it I think. That's right, I said, hand this out at your singles Bible study. We're thinking about coming to Greenville Planet Church and see if anybody wants to come. And and I got some information to Tom and said, hey, invite people.

So we we met at the Shoney's on White Horse Road. I flew here and we had a meeting on AI. Guess it was like a Sunday night and like 30 people came and I, it was a, it was we, we had some visuals of what church could be like and I got along to it and, and we got, there was a moment we got about 20 or 30 minutes into it where I don't know, man. It just felt like this makes sense. And I was explaining something and it felt like we would call it now athletically, I was in the flow. It just it's I was like, OK, OK, what was that?

There was just this moment that felt like we're casting vision, leading people and people are getting it. And I was like, that was unbelievable. And. The physicality of that moment, it's for you it. Was just, it was amazing.

And so then we so and I, we got a great response. People are super interested, 3035 people. And then, you know, we come in June and we start and none of those people want to do it.

I was like, OK, so emotion plays a role and it may not be reality. OK, You thought something happened that didn't happen. And Charlie Anderson came and did that meeting as well. Yeah, Charlie came, he was a, he helped put together all this graphic stuff and we communicated some of that and he was thinking about coming and helping too.

So it was great. And but then then you know, the the idea of being a part of something new versus actually leaving your church that is part of your family tradition and your spiritual, that's a very different thing. Back then, people didn't just jump around the I mean, you were born somewhere and you kind of stayed there and that's what you did so. And people were there weren't a ton of people moving into the area. No, that's not me. People were not moving in here.

This it was a good town. I mean, it was stable, but it was not exploding or anything like that. So, but we, we come a couple months later and we start meeting and people, you know, this just the, the initial vibe is not, it's not energetic.

And so we have a dinner with Tom and Allison, which is, you know, they're so hospitable and you know, we're, they're starting to have kids and we've got one. And so we're there's hey, come over, we'll get some dinner, gin, gins and easily. And so we go. Pick Shawnie's. It was done. We go, we go pick up dinner and I mean, we're out and I'm like, I'm so waited.

So we're running an errand while we're getting the food. And I'm like, Tom's just being Tom. He's normally he's doing, he's doing business, he's doing his stuff. And I was like, hey, man, can I just, are you going to help us or not?

And he's like, because we're supposed to wait till dinner to where we're going to talk about this, But I'm like, he, he acts like that. There's not my life's not hanging in the balance. He acts like this a normal day for him. I'm over here. Dying and we talked all the way over there and before we're like are they going to just are they having this for dinner because they're going to just like let us down easily or at this or are they wet We don't know and I've. Been over going, so am I. Is this a binary system that we're signing up for?

Am I and is A down line or is B down line? I don't even know what we're doing Starting a church. He has no. Do I have to sell soap? What am I doing? He has no concept what we're doing.

So he goes, yeah, yeah, we're good to jump in. I was like, OK, so we got that. And then we really did start on June 4th in his living room. And there was just. Five of us or so. Even Charlie and Terry had not moved here yet.

We had Vicky's sister helping with children and we had another couple from Texas that we had gotten in contact with and they were, but they are not there yet. And then when they jumped in and we're like, OK, there's a couple from College Station or somewhere they had, they had been familiar with the kind of church we want to do. But then after like a month or whatever, he got transferred back to Texas.

So they did have us over for dinner to tell us we're out, We're leaving. So the congregation struck by like 3040% in one night, sis. I mean, and we, we, and that's really how it started. It was very organic, very slow, very small. And that was not something there were other things like what we were doing happening in Greenville, but it was there was a seeker version, there was a Reformed Baptist version. There were people doing that.

But we none of us knew each other. So it just seemed like you were alone in the world and you're starting from which is true and you're starting from scratch and all that's good and healthy. But yeah, it started. To say it started small and slow is extremely accurate. That's what happened. Tom, why do you want to get involved?

When did you begin to see the vision for what local church that focused on discipleship and had some of these key elements that Vicki was talking about? When did you begin to? Format. I don't want to make light of that Shoney's meeting because for real, I think that was it. That was a good moment for you and it really did help us understand the concept of making disciples and making tour followers of Jesus Christ. And that's what we want to what we're still trying to do.

And there were some good churches around and I, but they were good for different reasons. And I think what we knew was what we knew, except what Matt and Vicki have already talked about, that there was this element that I really met. I met Jesus in a authentic way through a pair of church ministry in college, through FCA, the man who poured into me, poured into Matt and some other guys that I knew. And still today I have a relationship with him and he's still doing ministry.

And So what I saw was a lifelong, not occupation, but passion for people wanting to impact lives. And we've had a lot of iterations of that over the years of life on life and things that we've tried to communicate this concept. But I think that night Allison and I said, OK, this, this is a a different way to look at church and it's not it's something it's who you are and what we're doing, not what we're going to.

And so go back to your box checking thing and we we said this, this is a different deal. This is an all in kind of we're going to make this get all over us in area, every area of our lives, our marriage, raising kids and. And I just don't think at the time there was anything that we had a context for that that church did that to you. You know, the local church was again, this thing that you're a part of and you go to but not that becomes so much a part of who you are in your relationship with Jesus.

And again, not belittling any experiences we had had or other churches where we were going, but it it smelled, felt, sounded, looked different than anything we had seen. And man, Vicki did a great job of explaining and I know they reference Tommy Nelson and Denton Bible and and we had heard him teach and were captivated and I think to MO. The other thing was I started to realize the giftedness that you see in the body of Christ is important for the local church to thrive at its Max. And Matt's just a a gifted teacher, and I always make fun of him saying he's an entrepreneur, A businessman trapped in a preacher's body.

And I think that's why it was easier because I knew kind of the mojo he had of wanting to to do something well. And I was like, this would be amazing if church is the next thing that we're a part of with them doing, trying to do very well. Yeah. And it's interesting when you're talking about starting something being small and giftedness, you, you got to use everybody, right? Everybody's got to be a part of that.

So in some ways, the idea of being in Ephesians 4, equipping church from the ground up, but you didn't have another choice. But it's the right choice. And that's, I mean, we said it a couple times, like reason why we're talking and telling a little bit this just a story is want everybody to see. These are still the same ideas that are foundational to week in week out, not just our service gatherings, but all the things that are happening that make Grace Church Grace Church like they really kind of form around just a few big, big ideas.

Can you guys talk about people on top? We're going to hit a few different milestones and kind of Fast forward through some life of the church moments, but I'd love it if you would talk about the Johnstons and the proctors. Talk a little bit about how people have really helped shape make what people know of Grace Church Now possible. Yes, I'd love to. Wendell and Martha Johnston, they are were a couple that had kind of mentored us in Dallas. As a matter of fact, Wendell Johnston at the time we lived out there was my boss at the seminary.

He was the executive vice president at Dallas Seminary. And we just got connected to them over time and would dog sit for them. And they had three grown sons that were all pastors all around the world. Like I had never really even experienced a family like that, just the way they were on mission, every moment of their life. That's just how they live. And I'm even down to Wednesday mornings at seminary.

He made sure everybody around was coming in for prayer time. You know, he's, you know, huddling everybody up just at the beginning of our Wednesday morning work day. And so anyway, but they were just super impactful to us all the way around from the get go of just how they live their lives and what they gave their lives to.

But then when we got closer and closer to leaving Dallas and knew we were going to be coming back here to start a church, they ended up, and Matt might want to tell the story, but they ended up supporting us financially for the first couple of years. They actually had a foundation that their family usually typically gave money to support students, international students to come to seminary with, said they had never supported a church plant before. But they decided to latch on to the idea of what we were doing after we had already committed to coming.

So we didn't know we had the support. But anyway. And then ever since then, I just think the biggest thing with their life, just them being faithful followers and believers. They have prayed for us every single day since we started Christ Church. And I can't really talk about them without crying. Miss Johnston passed away a little over a year ago.

Every time I would speak to him on the phone. I pray for you every day. And I just feel like a couple like that they have, even though they've never been to a service, they've never attended a service, they have so much stake and investment in the lives of the people here. It's, you know, I don't know, it's hard for me to get my mind around honestly.

So. So I love that. Yeah, and he's 95 also. Yeah, now what kind of? You know, when we would eat dinner with them, it would be Vicki and Wendell are on that side and Martha and me over here talking because our that's how our personalities lined up. And it was a lot of fun.

And Martha was straight shooter and she's real direct. Wendell's the sweet 1. So I would I would do work for Martha. I'd clean her gutters and fix the window and fix the door and paint and do stuff more. And she was stand out there and talk to me the whole time and I would ask her questions. And these are people who had given their whole lives the ministry.

They hit trains when that they would go out of town. This kind of deal it is, is that they go out of town. So I'd go before cell phones, I'd go to their drawer with the phone where you keep your phone book and all that. And I get his personal phone book out and I would just look through and it was a catalog of all the famous Christians in America, like evangelicals, people all over the country that were presidents of seminaries, Bible colleges. And you would just meet Wendell. You would they call.

He was on the phone with them all the time. They're getting advice and counsel from him. And I would never have known that I knew, I knew a couple of his good friends just because they were living in Dallas.

But he and I would go walk in the morning and he would ask questions about me. He was never telling me about where he had just been teaching and what country he had been in and who he had been working with and who called him last night that you would all know. He was just like, OK, And I'd, I'd pitch an idea and he went, well, you know, here's another option. And he would just always trying to temper me, 'cause I was wound up about everything.

And so this got, like Vicki said, it's hard. There were things that we learned directly from them, but most of it was just watching the kind of people that they were how thoughtful and careful and kind and generous. And so and just like they've given their lives to ministry and they were that's what they were doing until they couldn't travel. They were traveling all over the world supporting missionaries, encouraging them. He's right in curriculum for his sons to go teach in other countries from first second Timothy Titus.

So it's just amazing they he. Was on the Cam mission board for years and helped get the Jesus film into multiple countries. Yeah, I mean. They're behind the scenes on a lot of things that we saw happening nationally.

But when you know a a couple like that, praying for you every day, financially supporting you probably helps you keep going during some hard times in in the early days. Another couple instrumental in us all being here and being able to listen to this these stories. Tom and Bay Proctor. Yeah.

So we our first five years, we don't have a building We meet at in Tom's house once or twice. We meet in a restaurant. They go broke and don't tell us. We I'm calling every hotel in town and they're all saying no and I'm going to get I'm temperamental.

So I'm frustrated at this point and I'm like, well then God, if you don't care about us and you're not going to help us, I'm sales my head right. I'm just going to ask the nicest, we're going to go to the nicest hotel in town, which at that time was the Hyatt. And I called the Hyatt. They're like, sure, we'd love to have you. How many rooms you need? 31 big room, 2 little rooms. How much $52.50 a week?

It's like, OK, you win this one. God has a good point. It all worked out. We did that for a year and a half and then we went to the YMCA the first time and then the jail man for a year and back to the YMCA and God just take care of us. And little did I know I loved all that. I didn't realize how much I loved waking up every day and having to figure it out that nothing was solved and nothing was figured out and it was all physical and I just it.

The saddest part is that I did not realize how much I enjoyed all of that and would do that part again in a heartbeat and it's so fun. Well, and you rallied people well during that time. I mean you still all. All three of us, seven of us, it was great. We tremendous influence, we all. Got in the front of that truck together, yes, that's. I think the people were in the church when you went to the Hyatt.

The first time, so that's still at the end in the summer, at the end of the summer. So what are what are we taking? When we leave the. Lose. What are we taking with us? 10 people. I mean probably 12 to 15.

Yeah, yeah. No Easter, Brussels downtime, because everybody want to be with their parents at a real church. At a real church.

So in other words, years we didn't do anything for Easter. I wouldn't even speak. Sometimes we just do something else because no one was there for the first few years. Take a little while for that to change. And I'm getting to the bar.

So we so we go to the jail man for year, then back to the YMCA. And it's while we're at the YMCA that we have no knowledge of this. There's a church on the east side of town, which I've never been to the east side of town. It was a sticks as far as I'm concerned. We always, always want us to be downtown Greenville and we're trying to figure that out. And even where my house is now, through the woods across Pelham Road to where the canvas is, where Lowe's Foods, all that was just horse pasture till not that long ago.

And but we're me setting up, tearing down all the different ways, and we're growing. And then there's a gal in our church who is aware of a church on the East Side, Metropolitan Baptist, that has had some leadership challenges and they've dwindled and lost people to other churches. And they're at a place where there's two elders left and they're trying to make a decision what to do with the building. And they one wants to sell the building, give it all the missions. One wants to give it to a ministry here in town.

They came to a compromise. We'll take the building and five acres, give it to a ministry in town. We'll take the other 7 acres, sell it, give that money to Campus Crusade, what was then called Campus Crusades, called Crew International focused on China.

And so that was their compromise going to cut the property. And so they worked through the process of cutting that. So then they have the five acres and the building and they're trying to very hard to give it to you. They have a maybe 10 ministries in town. They're going and visiting those ministries and, and, and interviewing them. And they're pretty low key.

They're not, they're not trying to be proud. They're just trying to find what's the be the best steward that they can. And this gal in our church knows some people that are connected to them and just says, hey, you should consider Grace Church where I go, the young congregation, they're just getting started. They could really use the building.

And so that's how we got on the list. They came and visited. They interviewed us, talk to us and that that went on. They were in that process for more than a year and which which is indicative of the previous leadership crisis, the struggle to make decisions, right?

And so they were in that thing for a long time and it was hard on them. And they were trying to do the right thing. And I think that's a hard pressure for Christians sometimes when they feel like there's a lot of pressure to do the right thing. And they are very sincere and wonderful people, but they are trying to figure all that out. And that went on for a long time. And we had Thanksgiving in our house and I remember putting something in the oven and closing the door and standing up in by the oven thinking in a very short amount of time, they, they could give us this building because I had heard that he goes, we're close to making a decision.

We want to tell everybody. And I'm ever thinking in a, in a week or so, we're probably going to know and we could have a building for free if that's, if I'm hearing them right, because you never believe it's too good to be true. And within a week or so they did, they called and said they want to give us that building. And then he goes, I want to meet you over there and show it to you again.

So he had us all come over and meet. And so he's walking me around the building and, and we had this real sweet moment. He made a couple jokes. He's got a dry humor. It's kind of funny. I was like, OK, this is great.

We it's awesome. And we get into the we get into the sanctuary worship center, what we now call the student center on Belm Road. And I said, I said, no, Mr. Proctor, no, what are we doing here? And he said, well, I don't want you to look at it because we want to give it to you, but you need to look at this and make sure you want to take it. And I was like, oh, I could have saved you a trip. I said, I said, no, you know, we've I said us praying about it and he started laughing.

I said, just feel silly because I mean, I don't think I could hear God say no. I said, but here is the thing and this I think this was this was being being open to God leading. And I just said, here's thing. I said this, everything about this is an incredible blessing and it's it's it's everything that we need and want. I said, but it is dated culturally and generationally. I said, and we would have to make changes here.

And I said like RIP up the carpet, the pews. I said it. And I said, and I would never want to say do anything that is offensive to you. God has taken care of us this far. We don't need this building to survive. God will figure that out.

I said, but I would not want to do anything to hurt you or anybody else. You'd be offended that we didn't think it was good enough for us. We're making these changes and I'm he goes, we have no strings. He goes, if I were going to put a string on you, I was going to tie you to something. I would just ask you to fill it up. Just fill it up with people.

Hey guys, we would love to see little kids running down these hallways again. And I was like, well, I can promise you we will do our. Best it still gives me butterflies. Listen, you tell that because I it was such a anxious waiting time and then you know, and it and you feel little dirty because it's a physical thing, but it was an important physical thing. And when he said that, he it was just like he he said, I want you to wear it out. Yeah, he did.

He goes wear it out And and we're like, yes Sir, we promise we will do that. Is there pressure that comes now from having a sense of permanence you've you enjoy a little bit of the chaos of problem solving and and moving around. So is there some there's some pressure that that comes with that? Yeah. I mean, there was afterwards at that point we, we are tired of setting up and tearing down and we have reinvented it every way that you can by that point.

And I've exhausted all that. There's all these little tricks and angles and dividing up, getting volunteers and paying some people here that I mean, we, but we are getting to the place where we are tired because setting up any, setting up anything less than 250 chairs is not complicated. Setting up 300 chairs and above and we were in the 350 range at the Y. When you start setting up more than 250 chairs, it's real work. And the staging and the screen and the projector, and I mean it is. Just and then the heat and the air we had to have, we had people coming in AT2O clock in the morning.

We had guys, you know, bring in heaters, just try to get this. Is that the gym at the old Y on Cleveland Strip? And people were in their parkas, you know, because it's freezing and they're literally freezing, but they're still, they're setting up those heaters and it's still cold.

So it would have been way. Worse, but you make those sacrifices when the acoustics are impeccable. So bad like. Once, yeah, when I was sitting out there with Vicki, I'd be off 1 teaching on weekend. I'd be like, I can't hear anything he's saying. She goes never, we can never can, but we never can hear what's being said.

I was like. That's why we always go back and get the cassette and listen to your assignments. Yeah, yeah. So we're four, so we'll just kind of use this as a jumping off point just then just kind of do some reflection because that really was a a game changer. And again, you know, Tom and Daddy, I mean, it's, it's just it's an incredible story.

But we're four years into the church plant. Yes, we're not. We're planted as that point almost four years. Well, by the time we moved in March 5th, 2000, that was our move in date. We got it in fall 99, we're told we had it and then we moved in. It took after renovations.

March 5th, 2000 was our first Sunday. And so we're closing in on five, you know, because from June 4th, 1995, OK. Yeah, Bill, when is it that you intersect this story?

Well, I was watching from a distance because Tom and I were best friends since childhood. We met, I moved out to Powdersville and I remember meeting him at Concrete Elementary School. And so we have been connected for a long time. And then we got closer as life went on. We didn't walk with Jesus together. And then I had a pretty dramatic change in my life right before my senior year of high school, which didn't, I mean, a lot of my friends I wasn't friends with anymore, but my relationship with Tom endured that.

And he was supportive of that. But we weren't really walking together. He wasn't walking with the Lord. Then I was worried, worried about him and praying for him. And, and so we had, so I watched his salvation conversion while he was at Clemson through FCA.

So I was adjacent to what was Matt and Vicki and what was going on in FO Ed Ferris and the ways in which a whole group of people and my wife have been impacted by FCA Ed Furman in that way. And but I was this kind of judgmental hardcore dude because I had been like that, that smell too much like what I had been my experience of that at Furman. And I was wrongly judging a lot of that.

So I'd gone to what became a precursor for Ruf. And so I did this deep dive into like being hardcore, you know, reform guy for a while in my 20s. So that's right. So well, and that's what I thought because it's an interesting thing because Tom and Allison were a part of this big Baptist Church. And I don't feel great about that because I'm judging everybody. And then so, but but we were very focused on expositional preaching where I came from and I was studying hard and I had vision for that. And I had actually thought about maybe I should plan a church one day, but I'm I'd not been a starter.

And so I saw what was going on and I would see things that, and I would hear things from Tom and Allison that they were excited about. And it didn't always hit me the right way. Like I remember men's roundtable and Tom talking about Mother Wayne and Father Wayne. And I was like, Oh my Lord, they'd gone and some kind of psycho Babble thing. And I remember really thinking that.

But then this, what I saw, began to saw how their life was being impacted and changed. And it was real encouraging to me. And I at that time I thought Doctrine was the solution.

And so I had to run it because it getting a good doctrine of the grace of God had really changed my life and it stabilized me in some ways that made it much possible. So that was the lens that I had.

And so that had to all play out. And I was a part of some really unhealthy churches and they were going through difficult times that all had good doctrine, but their practice, their practice was just all messed up. And I was watching what being a part of this church was doing to Tom and Allison, and I was being humbled through the whole process.

And so as I was seeing this and seeing how it all worked out, there was just this moment where some of the lack of health in the churches that I was in led me to just be. I knew I needed to be in Greenville because of some responsibilities that I felt in my family. And we have moved back here from Philadelphia because of that. And I just realized church is too important. I just want to be a part of a healthy church. And the churches that we've been in are not thriving.

And I was seeing what was happening at Grace Church. And so I just got in a job and quit working in churches and thought if God wants me to be in ministry full time, I'll be in ministry full time. But I'm just find a healthy church, raise my family.

And so I went to lunch, we, well, we visited because Tom was teaching on a sermon on fear of man and we worshipped there. And then we left and drove to another church. And I'm not saying anything against that other church, but when we were leaving and driving to that other church, my wife was like, why are we dropping at this other church? Literally, that's what she said to me. And we were getting ready to join and we had a moment and I had connections with those folks and they're good folks and it's still a good church and they're discipling people.

And, you know, and I thought that's what we were supposed to do, but we were getting ready to meet with those elders to join that church again on a Sunday. And but we had visited Grace and Rachel said, listen, and she's not confrontational. And so she, she said, listen, if you tell me that God's leading us to join this church, then I'm, I'm good. We'll join this church. She's like, but I don't think God's leading us to join this church. As she said, I think you're doing this because you're afraid and you don't know what.

Else to do and. Golly. And so I just looked at her and I said you're 100% right. And we came to Grace Church the next Sunday, and Matt was preaching on the daggone Rapture, which I don't even believe in. Oh, that is. Debatable.

I don't even believe no, he was preaching attack. It was amazing. But it was so funny because I saw we he and I gone to lunch one day and I told him, man, I'm just willing to reform preacher guy. And you know, probably don't want me in our church, but we loved what we saw in your church. And you know, I don't know if maybe we need to be here. And he gave me a sermon series to list.

These are you men don't even like my preaching. So here, listen to the sermon series the life of Moses. So I listened by half of it and I was like, no, I'm great with preaching, yeah, but it wasn't good enough for me to listen to the whole thing.

You listen to. Appreciate it. Listen to how to help. So you listen to the Half a life of mine. So, so anyway, so we showed up and it was a cool thing because we sat in the back of that building that we've been talking about that was given to them. We sat in the back corner.

Remember where we sat and all four of our little boys, me and Rachel, we sat down and I saw him see me in the back of the room. Do you remember this? You may not remember it. You saw me and you knew you were teaching on attacks that me coming from a reform context that we may not agree on. It's ironic because we just said revelation, you know?

And so we were both making some assumptions about where each other were coming from and how that would play. It was a cool moment because the way he handled the text was great. And I was like, this is exactly what I'm looking for. He was not overplaying his hand and shoving his religious agenda. He wasn't defending anything. He just teaching about and I was like, Nope, that's what we need to do.

And we met Scott Nelson, he had just come on our staff and he was doing, we call it assimilation. Been new people, yes, which is perfect. I mean he's perfect. I mean Scott could quote the 1st 600 people who came to our church back then. He knew everybody's saying, he still knows, everybody's saying in day when they came to our church.

So I remember we went and met Scott Nelson and then had a brief conversation with Matt and, and that was in O3. It was like June of, I think it was June of O3. We've been back in Greenville for about two years. You had just been on staff. Yeah, I started June O3. You'd you had just started and we had just started because I remember meeting you and Ashley at a I think somebody was getting baptized in your parents, fool.

We went through discovery together. And so that's exactly right, no? Exactly this camping chair, Yeah. We did. And so that was that was when we intersected with the church.

But I had been watching from a distance and it was just interesting to me. And I had some friends who said to me, you know, how are you going to go to that church because it's not distinctively reformed? And how are you going to submit the elders that you don't agree with? Although, hey, man, I've been doing church with people that I agree with on a bunch of doctrine for a long time that has not gone so well.

So I'm going to make a different mistake and I'll do so. I'm going to do something different, I said, because I don't care how people say what they say if they really believe in the authority of Scripture. And so for me, that was a thing. It was seeing Tom and Allison's life be changed and watching him learn how to love his extended family, really. And and then it was seeing how all that was being worked out. And it was me seeing that maybe being right about all these doctrinal things is not even the main thing, which I had been moving in that area anyway, but I just didn't have anything else available to me.

And it was cool for me because I was like, oh, here's this thing that I didn't know existed that I actually I agree with this process, but I just not seen anything like that. So we joined the church and I was working do a business development for a commercial construction company. And we had just done a new big initiative on getting volunteers because the church grew a lot when you got a building gave credibility.

So people came kind of as consumers, probably for the first time as we had all these kids, we're y'all were trying to get people to serve. And so there was this big initiative. Y'all going to see some church in Chicago about volunteer culture. And I remember there are always announcements being made. And I remember where I was sitting when y'all talked about the need you had in children's ministry. I was like, well, I'm contributing to that need.

So Rachel and I signed up that Sunday to serve as children's ministry volunteers. And but yeah, that's that's how we got started. Oh, before we go a little further, we got to bring MO into the mix.

So I had called a pastor, a friend of mine in Dallas and said, Hey, I, I need help out here. And he goes, man, because I got a friend that we're working in the leadership center at Dallas Seminary. He's got a couple guys that are just super bright, super talented. I was like, well, they wouldn't come work with me.

So you got anybody else? You got anybody mediocre. That's right. So I tracked all that down and got in that the the road forked a couple times and they got me to Scott Mozingo and we started talking I think in your third year and it's because it was a 18 month process.

So because you still had to finish school with four year program. And so we worked a lot and I thought MO has all this from the South, really, really bright and has a Harvard discipleship and just can work with anybody. He's got all these great social skills I don't have and wants to shepherd in care of her people.

But he was when I think when you came and we 28. Yeah, 28 and 11 months. Yeah, and had. That's right, that's what it was. And he had twins.

So he's going to school all day, working all night at the shipping, whatever UPS wives bedridden for the last while the pregnancy. So it was just a tough time. But I was like, if that dude's that tough, he cropped the back in Eastern North Carolina.

Now he's doing this. That's what we need around to hear. It's that kind of toughness. And so when he came here, everybody was like, no, how old is he? Looks like, how old is he? I was like, he's basically 30.

Vicky's like, that's one of the 28. That's right. And Vicky would be like, I don't even think he's 29. I was like, no, you, you got to give me that one. He's 29. He's telling me he's 20.

That was like, hey, I'm telling you it's not a good thing. But most people, they won't listen to you until you turn 30. There's something about 30, he says.

So it's true. It's going to be 33. I was 30. I was 37. I was 30. Matt wished to be 30 for the longest time after we first started when he when he was 26.

When we started, he just kept saying if I could get 30 people actually talk to me or stay and listen to my teaching. Yeah, instead of playing pick up at Ren where a guy like you said, what are you doing now, Matt? You know that you're back from seminary, he said. Well, we're going to plan a church. He goes, do we need more? Churches, it was not an encouraging time.

So yeah, no, I'm really trying to lead all these groups and I, I couldn't go to our elders and say I didn't feel like I got ourselves and say, hey, we, we need more. We need a staff person to handle small groups, among other things. So we had to just start a bunch of small groups and then I could say, see all these groups now we need someone.

And so the timing worked out. We were able to build some groups and get them here. And then MO took those over and tripled that number and wrote curriculum and then building what doing? I don't even know how many jobs you've had since been here, but it's a lot.

Well, people always say, how do you, how do you get a job at a church? I was like, we just like you give where you start saying, where do I want to live? And you start asking, who do I know because I've been in the church front. There's a special trick. You find out what the founding pastor is doing, but he doesn't want to do anymore. And you volunteer to do that.

They won't even ask you for a resume. Yeah, well, it's filling the gaps, baby, Filling the gap. Yeah, I was one of your. I was in one of your first leadership. Classes.

So after I've been here serving for a little while and MO had this, he had put together a leadership curriculum, next level leaders, next level leaders. I remember the binder. It's like a, it's a, it's a lesson. I quote you to you keep everything. It was a Leslie note binder. You know that's right, but.

He's got all these little tabs in it. And I remember it was Scott Freeman. And I don't remember everyone who was in there, but I definitely remember that Scott Freeman and I were in there because we came here, You know, I came here as a member when you were coming on staff. And Cosmo believed you were a next level leader. I was the next. I thought, Matt, there may be a. Future, right it was.

Talent scattered. Maybe a future. That's it for me here in your downline. Hey, can I ask a quick mission, something I should say before we get too much farther? I just want to bring up Tom and Joey Fowler real quick as people we talked about. I just feel like they joined us at the Hyatt and they were super young, but they were a step ahead of us like at the time, I mean, but they were in it with us and I don't know, I thought Matt Mike could speak to it, but Tom, it's ready yes, and I just don't want to forget that because they they felt like we were if when they just kept coming back every week and they were part of what we were doing and and Tom is such a biblical scholar and really helped us out in so many ways with disciple and people and anyway.

Yeah, why do? Why do they connect? Early on it's his future daughter-in-law is dating his son and she prevailed upon them to come visit this church and he walked in and said he's 40 ish. We're, you know, mid 20s. So he's Ancient of Days. I mean. He's 38 and 11 months.

Yeah, that's right. And he, he literally, you know, he, it doesn't take long to see he, he knows the Bible. He'd been an elder up north in Philly and just outside of Philly. And he is. And you could just tell he had all this wisdom and he just knew things. And I said, hey, after that we got said, hey, man, we we need, we're all we know we're doing.

We're all young. We need Someone Like You. He goes and he looked at me. He goes, no, he goes, I've done this. He goes and you have no idea what's getting ready to happen and what you're going to go through. He goes in, it's wonderful and incredibly hard and he goes, but I did this.

I, I, this is. And they have family in the area. Next week he was not there visiting a church with family and stuff. And then I think the third week they were back and then they were back.

And there I would I in a sermon within a few weeks, I talked about, one of my illustrations was who knows what the point was, but about all the Americans being rescued from Dunkirk. He comes up to me afterwards. He goes, hey, Americans were not rescued from Dunkirk. We weren't in the war yet.

And I was like, boy, if I messed that up, imagine what he thinks about my Bible teacher. And every once in a while, you know, we would sit down and I'd say, help me with this or that. And he would say, he would say, look, you can do whatever you want. He said, and there's freedom and all this. We have these things that are given to us in the scriptures where we need to obey those things. And there's other areas where we're not super clear because, but look at the patterns in scriptures because I would just encourage you to look at the Bible and do what it says, not just directly, but when it gives you a pattern for something, do that, even if it's not prescriptive, if it's D script, use that too, you know, and enjoy the freedom.

But he just always pressed on me to go back to the scriptures. And he is a he's a great teacher and he teaches from a pastor's perspective, from a shepherding standpoint, which is different than what I do. So that was always real help because hey, here's an illustration you might think of, or here's here's an application.

Here's something that would be meaningful to be 1 evil and in in there were some really hard days in those first few years where I made real mistakes. And you know, you always go, I'm going to be a pastor going to go inherit someone else's mistakes. So I'm going to plant a church that way I don't have to inherit this. What church might say, I don't want to inherit anybody else's mistakes.

Well, that's dumb because you're going to inherit mistakes. They're either someone else's or yours. And I would just tell you they're all terrible.

But when you inherit someone else's mistakes, at least you can say I'm cleaning up someone else's mess. But when you cleaned up your own mistake, they're like, so you're going to clean up the mess that you made and you feel, OK, well, I may not be that good at this. And so he really helped come alongside and was a great strength and encouragement as to Tom and me, particularly in some early days where I made mistakes and didn't handle things well. And he could just say, Hey, why don't you just call him, Hey, just go meet with them and just tell them you're wrong and you're sorry and you're you didn't know what you were doing.

I mean, he just that practical advice and he'd be like, read this passage. Tell me what that what you think that means. So and Joey is always the life of the party. She is always going to be there to encourage and give strength to you and love you and see the best.

And so they, they have been a backbone couple to us. And, you know, and then you mentioned Bo Ed Farris, who's discipled us in through the years. And we had another friends, Bill and Suzanne Shaw in Atlanta that mentored us. And they're a bunch. There's nothing that just happens in a vacuum around one person or one couple. God has brought so many people to bear.

But Tom and Joy Fowler have been in the nitty gritty and in the deep weeds of it from the very beginning. Thanks again for listening as we reflect on some of the formative moments of Grace Church. We are very grateful for your participation in the life of the local church and we look forward to many years of ministry ahead. We'll see you next time on the Members podcast.